" Brian, Nice post and it's right on. Neocons want to bust the unions. That's why most of the repubs want to have the big 3 go bankrupt first and then restructure without the unions, then they'll give them the loan. "

" I wish to state up front that my comments about your position on this issue were never meant to be a personal attack. If they came across that way then I do apologize.
Again your personal history is quite commendable. We need more of such a strong work ethic.
However the blind adherence to any type of ideology rarely leads to the desired outcome. Thats why I frequently shift back and forth from one ideology to the next to see what actually works in this life.
Having the federal government bail out industries en masse, as is happening now, is concerning to me.
However why draw the line at the auto companies? Why are banks any more deserving of federal largesse than car companies and the workers who work for them?
Just last evening I was at a social event locally and was speaking with a banking official of a large bank headquartered in Michigan. He let it be known to me that this bank is going to take around $300 million in federal rescue funds even though his bank really doesnt need such monies.
The attitude was that since such help is being offfered to the banking community, and without the requirement of any business plans which they require of the car companies, they might as well just take it.
Why the double standard? Is our hatred for unions so strong in this nation that many of our fellow citizens are willing to let an entire industry collapse just to get rid of unions?
Isnt that precisely what I said it was, "intra class envy". The attitude appears to be and I paraphrase "No one helped me out during my difficulties in this life, so we shouldnt help out anyone else either".
In addition, the REAL issue here isnt the bailout but the one sided trade deals this nation has pursued under both political parties. We allow foreign car companies to subsidize the cost of their workers health care, we allow them to manipulate their currencies so that their exports are artificially low in price, yet our exports in return are subjected to high tarriffs and other restrictions.
As someone like yourself who favors the free market, where is the free market involved when our trade negotiators allow such anti american trade deals to be negotiated?
Where is the conservatives sense of outrage when the free market is being manipulated by governments to deliberately disadvantage american companies?
A true conservative WOULD be outraged. But I sense none of that simply because of the hatred that most conservatives have for unions.
Its really that simple. You guys just hate unions and are willing to bust any union that comes along. If that means that true free market principles are sacrificed along the way, then so be it.
I respect your personal history which is quite commendable. I dont respect your views on this issue because they appear to be based upon an anti worker bias. "

" Brian and Sugarcane, since when does a person have to apologize for being a citizen in good standing? The only thing I was ever given, was given by my parents. I earned the rest. I put myself through college. I paid for my home and automobiles. I’ve never had medical coverage for me or my family. I don’t have a pension fund. I make less than half of what the average autoworker makes. I don’t envy them or anyone else, but assessors don’t make a lot of money. I have raised two children and am raising two more.

The auto industry has not been a good citizen for years. In the sixties, rather than compete with foreign companies, they got congress to put limits on imports. Thus, they drove the price of the imports up. That way they didn’t have to compete with Japan (mostly) and cheated the American people out of more of their hard earned dollars. Rather than improve their production methods to reduce the price of American cars, they drove the price of foreign cars up. This is what our government does for us. Government fixes help today at the expense of tomorrow. Well, tomorrow has come and rather than pay the piper, they want to borrow against the future again. Only the auto industry can fix the auto industry, but they have no incentive as long as our government is willing to mortgage our future to bail them out.

These bailouts are going to cost us in taxes. If they don’t, then our government is just inflating the dollar. As the value of our dollar falls, the prices go up. Do you remember the double digit inflation of the seventies? I do. Do you think that your income will grow equally? I doubt that mine will. This is not a “Republican attitude.” This is not an “I have mine”, attitude. This is the attitude of a man who has worked since he was sixteen and will continue to work until the day he drops. With the way Social Security is going, I’ll never live long enough to benefit from it. I just quietly pay my taxes. I have always supported myself and my family. If the good Lords wills, I will always be able to. If He doesn’t will, I will continue to strive to do so. This is not about “personal situation(s).” This is about personal values. These values were what my parents gave me. If the barons of the auto industry has been raised with such values, they wouldn’t be in trouble today. "

" Wow! "

" Brian, Well said and I commend you on your post. Jason2 appears to be a victim of the Fox News, guerrilla training. I'll bet he belongs to the Rush Limbo army too. Fox and Limbo are hate spewing right wing loonies that have had much power over the last 8 years. The Obama election shows that they have lost their political hold on the republican party. The repubs will have to change drastically from the ilk that they have bought into by the likes of O'Really?, Cul-Hammity, Ann Colder, and Rush Bimbo, or they will never win again for years. I believe many, many mid-wing and moderate repubs, actually voted for Obama. I'm sure many of them felt used and abused by the Bush monarchy. Even young evangelicals crossed over, I'm told. Hey Jason2, get rehabbed and of the right wing kool-aid. Otherwise your next 8 years are going to be real, real miserable. Also stop shopping at Walmart and support your local merchants. "

" To Jason2: The personal situation of one person rarely translates to others. Simply because you were able to live these past 10 years without using credit cards to pay for other bills, that you were able to pay them off every month, doesnt mean that others who did use their cards in that way are somehow at fault.
The "I have mine why dont you have yours" type of Republican attitude is whats wrong with this nation.
The fact remains that the middle class is under assault. Not only are good paying auto jobs being lost (GM already outsourced close to 70% of its factory line workers the past twenty years) but even other positions in high tech are being outsourced to India and elsewhere simply to keep the wages low.
If everyone only earns minimum wage or only slightly more, the whole retailing sector will collapse.
The United States will become a third world country where the vast majority of citizens wont be able to afford a new car, a new home, affordable health car. Pensions will be a thing of the past (they already are, only a tiny minority of workers have any type of retirement program set up by their employers).
Also please note the double standard of the congress. When the major banks and related financial institutions were facing immediate collapse, Treasury Secretary Paulson proposed an immediate response.
The banks didnt have to fill out a business plan. The banks werent required to fill out anything more than a two page form requesting help.
However it was a different story when it came to the automakers. Because the automobile industry is not "white collar", because it lacks the political influence of a "Bear Stearns" or a "Morgan Stanley", they were given carte blanche treatment by our elected representatives.
The lesson here is clear. If you are a bank, the federal government will NEVER let you fail. They will spend trillions of dollars in money (borrowed from the Chinese) in order to save you.
But an industry which pays decent middle class wages will be allowed to fail because of intra class envy.
Should the unions make more compromises? Of course they should. Health care and bonus payments to retirees is a major issue.
So is the lack of a national health service in this country. Every other major industrialized nation has a national health service. Their companies dont have to pay the high costs of health care.
Looking at the statistics for Europe and asia, their standard of living is actually higher than ours in many respects. So much for the argument that "socialized" medicine is an economic hardship.
Unfortunately since we as a nation have committed ourselves to bailing out the banks for up to 9 trillion dollars (so far), any attempt at getting any type of compromise concerning health care is going to be put off indefinitely.
This nation pays the most for health of any nation on earth and yet money alone doesnt pay for quality health care.
I digress. Back to the auto companies. What type of nation are we which lets our manufacturing base become bankrupt while encouraging our citizens to purchase foreign made products?
Not everyone can be a township assessor Mr. Jason. Not everyone can be a banker either.
Life circumstances are different. It would be nice to see a little more empathy towards your fellow man and a lot less of an attitude of superiority and judgement. "

" I was watching a segment on Huckabay this weekend. He was interviewing a couple of “average” auto workers from Michigan. One of the questions he asked was about their income. One said that the most that they had made in one year was nine years ago when he made $73,000. I have a bachelor’s degree and have worked at my present job since 1989. Nine years ago, that was twice what my income was. I am the sole employed member of my household. I have raised one family, paid off a mortgage, purchased American automobiles and paid all my bills. My credit card company has never been able to charge me interest. Excuse me if I find it hard to feel for the suffering of those who have had it so well. The time to pay the piper may have come.
When the banks fell in the thirties the government stepped in to insure that people didn’t lose their savings. Now the government is stepping in to insure that the banks can continue to make toxic loans. What are we going to do with the Big 3? They dug their own hole. If the government steps in to bail them out, they won’t improve. It’s time they stepped aside. Let someone hungrier step up and produce a vehicle that can compete with the foreign companies. I won’t believe that Americans can’t compete and win on a level field.
This is not heartlessness. This is tough love. "

" Let's hope so.
Seems our government loves digging itself deeper into debt. "

" Wingsboy, The big 3 have bought out thousands upon thousands of highly paid workers making arounf $70.00 per hour and is replacing them with new employees that will make $14.00, with no retirement and very limited healthcare, that takes approx. 1 year to qualify for. This is why it's important for the big 3 to get these loans. Yes, they and the unions will give concessions, unlike the banking and financial institutions received. The B&F are not helping those in need, but are hoarding the money and paying big bonuses and giving golden parachutes with it. They are not being held responsible for it as the big 3 will. "

" Maybe so sugarcane but if nothing changes in the operations of these companies we are "pissing" on ourselves.
The management of the Big Three will get richer, then the unions will want a share and will call for a strike to get theirs.
Just like with the already paid out banking funds, If there is money available they will all be looking to get their greedy hands on it and will end up in bankruptcy court anyway. Will the loans be paid back then? Probably not.
I'm not sure what the answer is but how many workers in Gaylord make the kind of coin that GM or Ford assembly line workers make.
Not too many. "

" Jason2, Your post makes as much sense as pissing in the wind. You obviously have no idea what your talking about. Letting the auto companies go bankrupt will effect 3 million people lose their jobs. This will cause a depression mor severe than the one in 1928. Even you, will have no money, no job and no food. I suggest you read more about the consequences. It is not a bail out. but a loan that will be paid back. The loan will be given, because it will be too devatasting, not too. "

" If the Big 3 could produce a car that had all the engineering, fuel economy and price of a KIA they would be the top of our market. All things being equal, I believe that American car buyers would choose an American car over a foreign one. The problem is that all things are not equal. Our auto industry hasn’t produced a car that is as well made, as fuel efficient, for the same price. Why, isn’t even important. I need to get the best buy. Most of us are in the same boat. The Big 3 don’t try to compete.

Bailing them out won’t change that. Higher tariffs and import quotas just make the Big 3 worse and it costs us all more. Capitalism hasn’t failed us. The Big 3 have failed. They have been arrogant and stupid.

I’m not an economist, but it seems that if the Big 3 fall they will leave a void in the market. Someone more hungry will fill that void. It would be nice if that company were an American company. If American companies can’t compete in the American market, however, then it’s time for a paradigm shift. That won’t happen until the old paradigm collapses. "

" This whole "bail out" phenomenon is bringing clarity to the issue of governmental intervention in the marketplace. The experience of the past six weeks is teaching all of us a lesson in the difference between good intentions and reality.
The major rationale for the bank bailout was that the banking community needed more capital and liquidity so that it could reverse the "credit crunch" and begin loaning money to consumers again and thereby lift our economy away from recession.
However what did the banks do with the money? Basically they sat upon it, the credit crunch still exists, and some of the money was used to acquire other banks.
The 250 billion dollars already used has largely been squandered. The only beneficiary of this has been the banking community. Yet even they are asking for more help.
Whatever happened to the promised oversight of the Treasury Departments efforts regarding the TARP program? TARP stands for "troubled asset relief program".
The oversight is just now beginning. Sort of like locking the barn door after the horses have escaped.
Given this very bad example of governmental intervention, why would we want to duplicate it with the automakers?
The Big Three execs have admitted that they really dont have any contingency plans if a bankruptcy actually is required down the road. They cant even come up with a precise figure of the amount of taxpayers monies required to keep them afloat.
What this actually means is that the U.S. Treasury would be responsible for a lot more than the 25 billion dollar bailout that is initially contemplated. We could be bailing out this industry for years to come to the tune of around 100 billion dollars.
There was once a saying that the road to "h..l" is paved with good intentions. It certainly was a good intention to keep the banking system afloat, but the reality after the intervention was quite different from what the Congress thought would occur.
The same is likely to occur if any bailout is approved for the automakers. Taxpayers would be guaranteeing Senior level secured debt held by (not get this) large banking institutions. In essence this would simply be another extension of the original bank bailout bill passed in September.
All of these well meaning but misguided efforts lead us to ask who is there to bail out the taxpayers of this nation? What happens when our foreign creditors like the Chinese simply refused to buy any more of our Treasury notes which finances all of our deficit spending to begin with? What then? Will we print so much currency that our currency will become worthless like it did in Post World War I Germany?
The time for any further bailouts is long past. We simply cannot afford it. If the automakers have to go to a Chapter 11 bankruptcy proceeding then so be it.
I certainly feel for the autoworkers and all those associated with this industry. But the consequences of continuing to bail out everyone when they are faced with economic ruin is becoming greater than the cost of such ruin.
Our federal government is broke. Its not only broke, its deeply in debt in the TRILLIONS of dollars most of which is owed to foreign creditors. Uncle Sam simply cant continue to bail out industries and remain a SOLVENT enterprise itself.
This is a serious time in our nations history. As a democrat who himself has had many good intentions through the years, I am finally beginning to see where good intentions alone dont constitute good public policy.
The REAL issue in all of this is the lack of good payings jobs for many Americans. The one sided trade deals which allow foreign companies to "dump" their products on our markets while our exports to them are overregulated simply must stop.
If Americans had enough INCOME to begin with, the sub prime mortgage crisis would not have occurred, people WOULD be purchasing more domestically made cars. Things would be more "normal" .
Simply bailing out the banking community, whether its directly through the bank bailout, or indirectly through the automaker bailout is papering over the problem.
It is like putting lipstick on a pig (Sorry Sarah). The real issue is the failure of one sided trade deals and the need to retrain many industrial workers in industries which are more globally competitive.
This nation needs more income and more productivity and not more federal bailouts that will in the end only result in the insolvency of the federal government. "

" They need to file bankruptcy, restructure, and get rid of the dead wood at all levels, these companies would go through 26 billion dollars like "you know what" through a tin horn, and be in the same boat within months. "